The Marriage Essentials Podcast

The Art of Healing with Trevor Hanson

• Brett • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Ready to transform your relationship? Join us on the Marriage Essentials Podcast as we sit down with Trevor Hansen, a seasoned marriage and family therapist who’s redefining mental health and relationship support. Trevor’s journey from the mainland U.S. to the serene landscapes of Hawaii is just the beginning. He shares his philosophy on extending therapy beyond the couch, along with personal stories as a husband and new father. Discover how Trevor’s dedication to authenticity can teach you to build stronger, more genuine connections in your own relationships.

Ever wondered how emotions can be used as data points? In this episode, we break down this fascinating concept, particularly helpful for those who lean heavily on logic, like engineers. Trevor and I share practical tips and personal anecdotes illustrating the transformative power of recognizing and framing emotions as accurate data. We explore how identifying and interrupting negative reactive patterns, such as the conflict cycle, can turn conflicts into opportunities for deeper understanding and growth, shifting the dynamics in your relationship for the better.

Communication is key, and we've got the skills to prove it. Learn how to slow down during emotional exchanges, make meaningful eye contact, and move from a defensive to a more vulnerable state. Trevor guides us through the art of nurturing emotional connections, especially during the challenging transition to parenthood. We also discuss the importance of empathy and curiosity in rebuilding attraction and connection after having children. With Trevor’s expert advice, practical strategies, and heartfelt stories, this episode is packed with insights to help you nurture and grow a healthier, more connected relationship. Tune in and take the first step toward transforming your relationship today!

Speaker 1:

Episode number six the Art of Healing by Trevor. Welcome to the Marriage Essentials Podcast, where we dive deep into the art and science of building a strong, loving and lasting marriage. I'm Brett, your host, and each week I'll bring you expert advice, heartfelt stories and practical tips to help you nurture and grow your relationship. Whether you're newlyweds or celebrating decades together, there's something here for you. So join me for a cup of coffee and let's discover the essentials of a happy marriage together. Today I have something very exciting the first interview here on the Marriage Essentials podcast, and it's with a friend of mine, someone that I've followed for quite some time now on Instagram and over the last year I've reached out to him and we had some amazing conversations. We've developed somewhat of a friendship and I'm excited to share just kind of the connection that we have talking about all the things that we talk about around relationships. You're going to listen in over the next 45 minutes or so to all the things that we discussed. There were so many things that I felt like we didn't get a chance to discuss, but we only have so much time and there's a lot of gold If you are interested in learning more about who Trevor is. If you're interested in any of his content, you can follow him on Instagram at the Art of Healing by Trevor. He posts some terrific stuff there. You can get a sense of who he is and you can follow his adventures, where he has moved from the continental United States over to Hawaii and is growing roots there. So go check out his Instagram and listen to our conversation here now. And listen to our conversation here now. All right.

Speaker 1:

Today I have with me a very special guest, someone that I have followed on Instagram for quite a while now and someone that I'm really excited to share with all of you guys here on the Marriage Essentials podcast. His name is Trevor Hansen. Trevor, welcome on. I'd love for you just to introduce a little bit about who you are and let my listeners know the adventure that you're on right now. I think it's pretty cool.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. It's funny when I do these little introductions. I'm like what do I choose? There's who I am and then there's what I do, and I think maybe they're like both, a little bit relevant.

Speaker 2:

I'm a marriage and family therapist, a licensed professional in the mental health and relationship space. I am a bit of a therapy entrepreneur in certain ways. I work a lot with not just my clients but providing additional resources, because I'm a big believer that I only have somebody in therapy for maybe an hour a week and then outside of that there's just a lot of other hours, right 24 in a whole day, stack them up over a week. That's a lot of time that I'm not with them, and so, to really see lasting change, I'm a big believer in putting in other kinds of work and developing yourself, and so I work a lot on developing other courses and things like that. That's maybe what's a bit unique about my approach.

Speaker 2:

I'm a husband, I'm a new father, I've got a boy who's seven months old. He's awesome. He's standing up on everything and trying to crawl, falling over all the time, bonking his head because he's just got so much energy, which is a blast. We just moved to Hawaii. I used to live here I was a student at BYU Hawaii on kind of the North Shore side of Oahu. We've just come back because we love this community, we love the people here, and so we've been here all of. We're closing out the second week right now Looks like a blast.

Speaker 1:

Instagram has a way of making it look like that and I'm sure there are challenges that have popped up over the course of the move and things like that. But my listeners know that I'm a guy who loves adventure and just to be able to kind of live vicariously through you. It's been fun and exciting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's way fun. There's definitely challenges, like my desk right now. I wish you could see. It's hilarious. It's this little tiny nightstand. It's not even like a full desk, because my desk hasn't come over yet. We're like shipping everything. Now I'm kind of regretting it. I was like I shouldn't have shipped my desk, I should have just bought one, because this is ridiculous. But here we are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's amazing, like looking at you there it looks totally put together. But I did see on your stories I don't know if it was a day or two ago you shared kind of the behind the scenes of your setup there and I get it. Man, that's just kind of what we do in this industry is you put the backdrop on and it's the perk of virtual work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've got plants on top of cardboard boxes and my lamp is propped up on a box. It's totally just makeshift, but you do what you can.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's something that intrigues me about you is I feel like you're changing the paradigm of what mental health support looks like. We're in a pretty new field I would say relatively new field maybe catching steam in the 70s and taking off from there. But for a long time it was like, yeah, you meet with your therapist once a week. It's like a very clinical environment. You don't really know anything about the therapist, there's a lot of limitations around disclosure and things like that, and it seemed like it allowed for the field to advance.

Speaker 1:

But now it seems like we're kind of in a new stage of the field where it's not so helpful for the client to have this almost perfect image across the room from them.

Speaker 1:

There's some helpful aspects to the client being able to connect hey, there's someone across the room that's just like me. They're human too. There, trevor, is something that I'm really excited to replicate, not necessarily what you're doing, but take my work and put it into the same model where you can have clients come in work with you for an hour, but they also have access to the same message, the same resources and more in-depth products and tools that help them in between the sessions. And I think you're absolutely right, trevor, that it's so important for that client to have the transformation that they're looking for. Because we're forgetful At least I am, I know that For sure. Yeah, and it's hard to remember exactly what we talked about in session but to be able to go into, like an online platform or wherever, and be like, oh yeah, that's right, this is how it's done is critical to being able to apply these skills and tools that truly do transform relationships and lives and things like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. It's true, the sessions are awesome and, I think, very important but, like we're saying, that's such a limited amount of time, that's such a limited space. And I do love how, when a therapist lets you know about themselves and they're not just sitting there across from you looking, like you said, kind of this, like perfect shell of an individual, that's just a practitioner. But to be able to connect I think that's the word that jumped out at me when you were talking about that, because I'm a big believer that a lot of the things we face in mental health can be overcome through connection. Addiction, the key is connection. You have to have other people that are with you, even internal connection. If we're looking at those kind of neglected parts of yourself that you don't want to look at, or those parts of you that are afraid of commitment or closeness or whatever that holds you back. Being able to connect with that part of yourself, being able to connect with that estranged parent or child, that's what brings healing. And to think that I'm going to sit in a room as a relationally focused therapist and not have a relationship with my clients, and I don't really think a real relationship is possible without offering up a little bit of information, like a little bit of disclosure.

Speaker 2:

And I've heard the horror stories as people come and see me, you know, of past people they've worked with, where they say they just made it all about them, like all they did was talk about them, like okay, that's a little too far. Obviously, what I do for example, when I'm in sessions I'll always say you know what, not to say, your story's the same as mine, or maybe it's not even like mine, but this is what you know, I experienced, and oftentimes that it is pretty similar, not to say that it's exactly the same, but it is pretty similar. And they'll say, no, thank you so much for saying that. That makes a lot of sense. It gets great to hear that somebody went through it. I don't want to just be this machine. I want to be a living, breathing, loving person. So when they leave my room they're like I've never felt so loved by anybody in the whole planet. That's what I hope for, and you can't really do that without being a bit vulnerable yourself.

Speaker 1:

I 100% agree, and the other way that I have found myself kind of using personal examples is to help someone understand a concept that I'm teaching.

Speaker 1:

And sometimes, when you can take a personal real life example, it connects with the client a lot more than if I was like here is Dick and Jane, and Dick said this. People are like, okay, well, that's not real life, but with the work that you and I do, since it's relational, both you and I are in relationships with everyone around us, right, and I'm able to say like, oh, and there was a time in my life where something like this happened and this is how it showed up. Now I can apply a tool or help them see like this experience is not only limited to them and their life, but maybe it's happening in other places. It seems like the end user, the client, can connect and learn a lot more from those real life examples, and they're not even always like stories about me. I might say, like these friends that have this kind of a situation happen, right, and that way they're able to feel like, okay, that there is real life example where this is happening and this tool or skill was able to be applied.

Speaker 1:

So having that freedom has been helpful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, and I think it's up to individual therapists. I remember even in grad school there was oh, you got to be like really careful about how much you disclose, and it was like self-disclosure was almost seen as like a negative thing to do. You're just supposed to kind of just be that machine, that tool for them, as long as what you're doing has good intention and you believe that it's working and you're tracking that and you're seeing that it is working. Yeah, you do it. I kind of unapologetically talk about things in my life, even through like my podcast or like online.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, there's so many therapists out there who have the same exact credentials, meaning maybe they're an MFT and they got certified in EFT and maybe they've done basic training in IFS like all these things. But first of all, most people don't even know what those letters mean. So they're not looking for that, but they're looking for a person to connect with. Most people probably don't even know what I'm trained in. They're like I don't care, I just want to work with you because of who you are. That's pretty powerful because that's a human connection, Yep.

Speaker 1:

If you haven't gotten the hint yet, you got to follow Trevor on Instagram. I love the content that you put out there and I've shared this before in some of our conversations previously. But you're one of the few therapists that I've come across, trevor, that felt like I identify with, that I align with, and there's a whole bunch of different variety of people and therapists and that's amazing. I would say maybe you'd agree with me that there's not a whole lot of people that, oh, I don't even know exactly how to describe it because it's kind of revealing myself. I like sports, I like being outdoors, just kind of a regular guy.

Speaker 1:

Like I'm not seen by many people as just this mystical artsy. I'm very kind of logic based. And then I came across you and I was like, hey, this guy kind of seems like me. You know, like skiing, that's me. And you talked about the same principles that I do, really around relationships which I think regular dudes can talk about and work to understand without getting lost in like this kind of mystical. We're going to like sit down and do yoga together, cause that's sometimes what I feel like the men clients that come in feel like they're walking into what I found in the content that I do. The content that you do is you know, emotions are really logical when you can kind of like slow them down, and I love just making the logic out of the emotion and making sense of it and then using that to understand and have better relationships. Because what I know about everybody that I work with, we're all kind of looking to be a little bit more secure in our relationships and to have better relationships.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I love how you say emotions are actually fairly logical in a lot of ways and they really are. And it's funny because there's like the spectrum of the more we're standing on our heads on the beach like yoga, woo, woo, like you're aligning our chakras like whatever, versus like super, super logical, like computer brain guy, and I feel like a good therapist can meet somebody anywhere in between. It's like you want to go all the way over here. Over here we can do that. Most of the times people are somewhere in between. But for those who do come in a lot of times, men who come in more on the logic side, I frame emotions as data, especially like my engineer clients. They love that. They're like the hardest to kind of get through that emotional barrier and they'll even hear the word emotionless. But yeah, I just don't really get them. I just don't really do that. I don't really whatever. I'm like, oh, okay, that's cool, man, let's start there. And then I'm like what if you were working on a problem and there was like a bunch of data that you actually didn't have, like you're building something, you'd understand the load strength or the weight bearing of like a particular nut, or how high it's supposed to be, or like what's supposed to fit in the mechanism. Like what if you're missing some of that data? Like it doesn't work. That's exactly what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2:

If you miss out on the emotion, you actually miss out on the bulk of the data Meaning in a conversation. You think you're arguing about the dishes, but you're actually having an argument or a conversation. Well, it can be a conversation, but it's turned into an argument, probably because you missed the data and the data is no. You're actually having a conversation about how maybe one of you longs for more of an equal partnership and to feel like you're on the same team and that there's maybe an underlying fear that your relationship is going to look like mom and dad's relationship, where there is an imbalance and one became resentful of the other and you don't want to become resentful of your partner. It's like whoa, so much data is back there and you're fighting it out.

Speaker 2:

The dishes no, it's not about like scheduling, like well, on Tuesdays you'll do them and on Fridays I'll do them. That could help, but that's not what it's about. That is not what it's about. It sounds kind of laborious to get underneath the surface and figure all that out. However, once you get in contact with that data, you almost step into a whole nother realm where you're able to connect with each other on a deep level Holy cow, like I'm understanding you, you're understanding me and you're able to then make adjustments in the marriage logical adjustments, even that bit, the data, and so, therefore, things start working better, and that's kind of how I like to frame up emotions. It's just accurate data. That's all it is. I'll just share with you.

Speaker 1:

I think this will kind of segue into what I want to touch on next with you, trevor. I've been married now for 12 years. Early in my marriage these kinds of things would come up. I'd come home from work and I was excited to see my wife and within like 10 minutes or half hour, all of a sudden it was like there's so much tension in the room you could cut it with a knife. I was like what on earth is going on, cause like I was so excited to come home and see you and now it's like I can't even talk to you and we're both kind of contentious. We weren't like yellers and screamers by any means. We would be like more emotional. I'd call it, I'd shut down. She'd kind of become anxious and I didn't have that language at that time. I said it feels miserable.

Speaker 1:

In an effort to help serve my clients better, I was working with couples and I felt like a couple's referee, not a couple's therapist. I ended up searching for additional support, went to an EFT course. It was a Zoom class and I remember on my screen this little sideways figure eight popped up on the screen an infinity sign. The guy who was teaching it kind of began to go through this like figure eight, and as he went through that figure eight again, I was learning to serve my clients. But I remember sitting there like that's what's happening at home. He called it a negative reactive pattern. I call it the conflict cycle. I remember like seeing the conflict cycle and being able to see what was happening in my home. My life and relationship changed from that minute forward, isn't it crazy?

Speaker 2:

It is so cool, so cool. I love that. You were like a therapist in an EFT training and you realized, holy crap, that's the thing. And I think a lot of our clients have that safe experience. I'll even draw it on a whiteboard or whatever, map it out and they're like, oh, can we take a picture of that? And there's some cool experience of when another person can describe what's happening internally in your world, whether it's in your relationship or just inside of your mind and heart and brain, in a way that's so poignantly accurate and more accurate than you've been able to describe it up to this point.

Speaker 2:

That is like the most hopeful moment, honestly, because if someone can describe it that well, it feels like there's a path out, especially if it's a pattern that you can map and patterns can be interrupted, like all we got to do is change at least one part of that cycle. And that's why I tell people, even if your partner isn't quite yet willing to like come to therapy, isn't quite yet willing to change, you have the capacity to heal your relationship on your own. And I'm not saying forever. If one partner's over-functioning forever, then that's going to build resentment, it's not going to work, it's going to be a bad deal.

Speaker 2:

But if one partner shifts in the cycle, like, instead of being defensive, maybe they lean into validating and listening consistently, get out of their move and move into something else all of a sudden their partner's going to feel more safe and that might be just enough for their partner to also start responding in a healthy way. You might just need to make the one change on your side and you influence them to make change on their side, which is like the coolest thing in the world. This is what I call the Jedi mind trick. It's not manipulation, it's not shady. You're just literally doing more healthy, better things and people across from us are more likely to respond in a similar way when we start behaving that way, we meet combat with more combat. We meet collaborative energy with more collaborative energy. We're just built that way, and so you can kind of wave your hand and like, yeah, you will start talking nice to me because I'm talking nice to you and I'm validating you.

Speaker 2:

And it doesn't always work. Obviously there's some people who just aren't fully willing. But in loving, committed relationships where both people are actually trying, it can work, even if only one person makes a difference Totally.

Speaker 1:

You talk about that word, manipulation. I'll tell my clients I'm not a fan of lying. I'm a fan of communicating your true, honest emotions, bringing clarity to that relationship, and sometimes, yeah, instead of being defensive, it's like hold on, I don't know what's happening right now, but I care about you and I want to figure this out with you. That's a change in the move Like you talk about. I'm a visual learner, so like, the picture that I often have is a foggy glass between you and your partner, and sometimes it gets so foggy that it's hard to see the person on the other side, because both sides are like smudgy and foggy. And clarity is like washing your side of the window. Right, and sometimes washing your side of the window allows just enough light to go through that the person on the other side can be like and there's someone on the other side who cares, and what they naturally do is they go and clean off their side of the window too, and all of a sudden we have this clarity that's restored in the relationship. What a cool analogy.

Speaker 2:

This relates to us being a bit self-disclosing in therapy, where we talk about our own stuff a little bit. There's something healing, inviting, calming when we can see a person. We're wired that way. From the very beginning, Babies look at faces. Nobody taught them that that's what they need to do, but they do. They look at eyes, they look at faces. They respond to smiles pretty early. My boy he's tiny right and he's been smiling for months. He's been making eye contact when I'm not looking at him versus then, right when I make eye contact, he lights up.

Speaker 2:

There's something there, that moment where you wipe off the glass. I think wiping off the glass in like a tangible form looks like being vulnerable and letting them see your humanity. It's almost like making eye contact with them emotionally. Instead of reacting in defensiveness, you tell them about your fear. Instead of shutting down in protection of the relationship, you let them know what your intention is and how. Maybe you feel stuck and you don't know what else to do in this moment, Instead of getting critical, you voice how much you long for help in whatever way it is that you're needing help In that moment. It's almost analogous to making eye contact through the glass You're making emotional eye contact and that brings that calming, that brings that natural longing for connection, that leaning in. So I think that's a really beautiful analogy that helps us draw out why vulnerability works, Even from a scientific standpoint. I think it has to do with the same kind of mechanisms that we respond to human connection, whether it's eye contact or emotional contact.

Speaker 1:

And that eye contact. Trevor, I wonder if you've had similar experiences. You're trained in EFT, so I assume we do kind of similar processes, because there's really a process to EFT that we're all trained in and one of those steps in that process is being curious and leaning into the experience of the individual that's in the room. It's always been fascinating to me that I will be talking with a husband, right, and we're getting to like some of his true emotions. He might be saying things like I'm worried, I'm just going to keep messing it up, that's scary for me, and he's telling that to me just very flatline.

Speaker 1:

I would say like I don't know what to do. I'm so scared If I open my mouth I'll just kind of ruin it again. I'm sick of ruining it. I just hope that if I maybe stay quiet it won't get worse. And then I'm like wow, that's so powerful. You know, maybe you could turn to your wife and share it with her. That was shared in the room with no emotion, very little. I would say Right, right, right. And there's kind of one of two things that happen Either it's like nope, ain't doing it, yeah, but when they can take that step, they're brave enough, they're vulnerable enough to turn and make eye contact with their wife and share that I bet nine times out of 10,. We have waterworks Like I'm running for the tissue box and he's crying, she's crying.

Speaker 1:

This is fascinating because he just said this two minutes ago and there was no tears.

Speaker 2:

Two things that I think are happening in that moment is that you're probably slowing it down because he's probably ranting like 100 miles an hour. I'm just afraid, like if I say anything like that, it's just going to like ruin everything and you know, he's just like at a real fast speed. And the slowdown is a really important element there too, because we're talking about the eye contact, which is huge, but also I would go whoa, hold on, can I slow that down for just a second you said it real quick, but there's something that maybe deserves to be said slow there, because it's really important.

Speaker 2:

What I'm gathering into this you're afraid that you're going to ruin it all if you keep talking and it just paused, and then it just wait and I don't say a dang thing.

Speaker 2:

And he's like looking at like, yeah, that's what I said. Okay, what does ruin it all? Even look like, when you think about ruin it all, how do you feel right now as I talk about that the woman that you love the most and you're about to ruin it all? You help them to get in contact with this emotion and, if you're listening and you're in a relationship, do this on yourself a little bit. If you're noticing that you're speeding up and you're just like ripping through these emotions really fast, let's take a close look at the data. Let's get real accurate by letting yourself feel it a bit.

Speaker 2:

And it's kind of scary because if you feel it and then you share it, super vulnerable, you get hurt. Like what? If she's like, well, I'd rather you say something instead of do this. It's like, okay, that's a possibility, right, but you're not going to get anywhere without giving the opportunity for that real human connection, that slow down that eye contact. Yeah, you're right. It's so funny how it's the same exact words and yet the emotional experience is 100% different once you share it with the person that you care about the most.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's been the case for me and I would say, like you're exactly right that before I like have that client pass that information over to their partner, we're really looking for them to move out of that protective emotion. So that's kind of that work is bringing them down into that vulnerable emotion. That's way more important than even the words. Sometimes that's the first time in a long time that their partner has been able to see like oh, he's not like way up, activated right, you see, like that humanness in there and there's this natural element of compassion that takes place when we see someone's vulnerability. Also, boom, it's in the room and that's like that emotional experience that is new and different than maybe they've had in the past around their negative pattern or their conflict cycle.

Speaker 1:

I liken it to I always liked vanilla ice cream and then in the therapy office you have like a new flavor. It's like this new experience of like wow, this conversation can go like this. All of a sudden you used to love vanilla ice cream, now you love like Rocky road or whatever it is. It's like I want that again. And now that's where I think, like some of these additional resources, like what you're doing, trevor, is so important because now these clients can go home, they can be in their own environment, in their own walls, without a third party present, and they can work and practice to do it again, and I think that's the goal, at least for me, with my clients. Yeah, we do a couple of these, a few of these, a number of these, however many it takes inside the office, but at the end of the day, I want you to be able to have this relationship all by yourself. There's so much that can happen after that experience, where it's just so connected, we feel so reassured. To be able to do those alone is really powerful.

Speaker 2:

Right, and a tangible takeaway is somebody who's listening to this may or may not be a therapist. Even if you're not a therapist, you can kind of take the role that you and I are talking about. You can kind of take the role of the therapist at times in your relationship, because all we're doing let's go back to this example Guy's on a rant about how he's afraid that he can't say anything and that he's just so scared that he's going to ruin it all or like whatever. Really, what the moves were that we would do as a therapist is first, just slow down the tone. Bring in that late night FM DJ voice. That's just like oh okay, hold on. Got that from Chris Voss. He's an awesome negotiator guy.

Speaker 2:

Super awesome. Another principle I stole from him is collaborative versus combative, and I don't know why my video just gave me balloons that was awesome.

Speaker 2:

I think it has to do with Apple's update, but anyway, it's this collaborative nature. In that moment, when the guy is sharing about how he can't say anything, he might even be sharing it in a bit of a combative energy. He might be saying actually pretty vulnerable words, but he might have a bit of a combative or a bit of a defensive energy as he says it. Well, I just can't even say anything. I'm terrified that if I do, then blah, blah, blah Almost like painting her as like some sort of terrible villain, and maybe he's doing that on purpose.

Speaker 2:

He's like look how crazy it is. I can't say anything. And to help him move from that combative, that defensive energy into that soft and collaborative energy is that he receives collaboration from us, the therapist. We just go oh man, hold on, I want to hear about that, I want to know more about that. I get close to what he's saying rather than further away by defending it. I'm like, well, she's not actually crazy, she's just asking. He doesn't need to hear that right now he's just going to fight us back.

Speaker 2:

So instead you just repeat the words, you get close and then also it's just that validation place, like, oh my gosh, I can't even believe that. What that would feel like to worry that everything's going to fall apart if you say another word. She matters more to you than anybody man. That's really hard. It's asking questions about the experience, it's slowing down, it's validating, it's just truly being exactly present. And I'm not telling him he's right about anything, I'm just telling him that I see him and then all of a sudden the walls go down and he's in a space that's open for connection. It's kind of like once we prime them up, then we'll pass them to their partner. But in a way, if you feel like you have the emotional bandwidth to do it yourself, you can kind of do the priming for your partner through that listening, through that validation, just like staying there knowing that the more primed up, the more soft they are, the more you're able to help them move to collaboration, the more open they'll be to listening to whatever you've got going on as well. They're going to just naturally be much more open. It's kind of a set of skills and this is where I love the conversation of logic and emotion. We're talking about very logical and almost tactical things that you can do Slow down, soft voice, validation, seeking understanding. They're actual, tangible skills, like a skill that you would have in a sport, and you can recreate them. That's a very logical approach and this I feel like is so hopeful.

Speaker 2:

As a therapist in the beginning, at first it seemed like really good therapists were just like magical. They just like knew the little spells and like knew how to do it. And it was never tangible and I didn't know how to hold on to it. But as soon as I realized like oh, these are trackable moves, like these are things that you can recreate, I was so hopeful. I was like, oh my gosh, I can help my clients. Whether the clients can see these as tangible, trackable skills, they can become hopeful, like, oh man, I can actually recreate this Like I can do it again on my own. I don't have to have my therapist here.

Speaker 1:

I think that's so true and to be able to point and guide people to those tangible skills I think is so helpful, because one of the complaints that I get from my clients they're saying I'm doing all these things, listening to all these people, and all I hear is do the work. What is the work? I've heard that many times and I think some of this stuff is the work. As you try to develop these, like what's keeping you from being able to talk in a soft voice, what's keeping you from being able to drop the defensiveness and to repeat back. Those are the things that will pop up as you try to practice these skills.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that's the funny part, is that Sue Johnson, the founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy, talks about how communication skills are worthless because you won't be able to use them when you're emotionally escalated. It's funny to disagree with Sue a little bit, which sounds like a cardinal sin, but I would say they're worthless without also emotional regulation. Emotional regulation paired with skills for communication is like the ultimate recipe to success.

Speaker 1:

Emotional regulation is a skill that's something we can practice and develop, and we can map out what we need to do to get back to a regulated state so we can use our skills.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and it's kind of like people get stuck in therapy sometimes, I think, because they maybe are only doing logical work where they're like I got a lot of discoveries, I realize things about myself, but I don't feel any different, I don't change anything. Or when I'm triggered, it's all out the window and it doesn't matter that. I realized that my insecurity comes from that my brother had a disability. He got all the attention and I felt like I had to fight for the attention or like whatever the deep realization is, it's like it doesn't matter. In the moment when I'm freaking out and I don't feel worthy of love, I always go.

Speaker 2:

Maybe the reason that you're getting stuck is because your therapy also doesn't include that emotional, experiential piece to it where we got to increase your capacity for emotional regulation and then all of a sudden, that insight, that revelation that you got in therapy, you can connect with it. It like means something in that moment. Oh yeah, that's right. I grew up in a home where I didn't quite get as much attention and I get that. I can have compassion for myself, all the logic can happen and then you can go back into the emotion which is compassion. The lever for true healing is the emotional experience and logic can help us get there.

Speaker 2:

But I usually say it's a sandwich In the beginning. Emotional regulation, let's just bring it down to where you can use some logic to realize some things and from that logic you expand your capacity for deeper emotional healing. You know how to apply it. You see yourself in your story. You have compassion for yourself in your story. I'm getting it. Internal family systems a great model works the same way. You map out in a very logical way your different parts of self. The experience of doing it is a bit emotional as well, but then you have this logical map that you can then use in an emotional way. It's kind of like this cool emotion, logic, emotion sandwich that I feel like a lot of people need to experience to actually find some progress.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that I've heard from some of my listener base is help us answer some of these real questions that we have. I want to take a question from the wives that I hear from quite a bit and then a question from the husbands that I feel I hear from quite a bit and we've touched quite a bit kind of on some of the husband dynamics already. But here's one question that I feel like I get in many different ways. I have a wife who longs for a deeper connection with her husband. When she tries to get that or access her husband in that emotional way, she's kind of met. He's not really into that, he doesn't really enjoy like these deeper conversations, and she's just going to kind of have to deal with it and she's like, well, what do I do? Cause it's so important for me to feel that emotional connection.

Speaker 2:

I'm kind of wondering what does the approach look like right now? Is it going from cold to like? Let me ask you this really deep, meaningful question, because if we go from cold straight into some sort of deep question, that's going to be a little bit hard. And then I feel like also recognizing, maybe, where he experiences emotion. What does he get excited about? Can you meet him in that place? Maybe he's just like stoked out of his mind because you just got a deer and he's like bringing it home and you're like, oh my gosh even labeling some of his emotions man really happy about this, aren't you? I really am. It's like whatever, just like meeting him in whatever emotions that you have access to, like start there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's so good. Sometimes those sentences or the thoughts that go through our mind is he doesn't have any emotion, right, he's not interested in me, he doesn't care about me, like those are some of the things, the fears that come up and I think you know I always kind of picture it in this conflict cycle. I think that there's some room to work on what exactly you're saying. You're not emotional might not be the way to like start a deep, emotional conversation, but sometimes just to say like you know what you're so important to me I always use this phrase You're like my bees knees. I care about you so much I'm scared that I'm not important to you. Sometimes, just sharing that maybe you don't get anything in return.

Speaker 1:

I've had clients who've been able to do that. They might just get like blank stare back and then the next morning when they wake up and he's already gone to work, there's like a little note on their bed or something like that. They're just a little bit slower processor, right? They changed the way that they communicated it, right, it wasn't like what's wrong with you? Why don't you, you know, want to connect with me? Why aren't you emotional? And they just said, dude, you're a man and I'm scared that I'm not your girl and I want to be. I want to be that special person to you. It might still take a little bit for that person, who's naturally maybe more guarded with their emotions, for them to kind of process through it, and maybe there's some sign that they heard that down the road and there totally could be a different right there in that moment too, where they're like, oh, I didn't realize, that's how he felt. And they might reassure you in that moment, which is really what you're looking for, when you say why aren't you emotional?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love that because it changes it from a criticism why aren't you emotional? It's almost like telling a person you need to be different, you're not meeting my expectations, you're not enough in this particular way, when really the message is I just want reassurance and I want to feel close to you and you're important to me. Well, that's a way to message that you're not enough.

Speaker 2:

Completely the opposite, actually, and I also think emotional connection can be not necessarily even just talking about emotions themselves. It can just be experiencing emotions while connecting around other things. I created a resource called 19 Conversations Closer, and it's literally just 19 different conversations full of handfuls of different questions and those questions they're not necessarily like, so tell me how you feel. At the end of each conversation there's a question to kind of reflect, like what was this like? How did you feel? However, just asking questions about their childhood, what they liked growing up, what they think about during the day, what they're concerned about, just like questions about them and their life, those conversations can be emotionally connecting. I also say emotional connection is also found in exploration. Exploring either new conversations, like we're talking about right now they can be exploring new experiences together and then also, to really make it feel more connecting is just paying attention, being mindful about how it feels.

Speaker 2:

Oh, we're going to eat at this weird hole in the wall place that kind of looks scary in our town, that we're not sure if it's going to be good. What kind of ethnic food is this? We don't know, but we're going, you're going and you're paying attention, not just to like how the food tastes, whether it's horrible or not, or going to make you sick or not. You're running the risk and you're paying attention to the feeling of what it's like to run the risk together. That's kind of fun and I'm doing it with you Like that's really exciting. And you know they may not be having the same exact experience, they may not be thinking of it that way, but you can go and have that experience and think about how much fun it is to be there with them in that moment and that can also be emotional connection.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't have to be this big sappy conversation, and I'm all for sappy conversations. That's like what I do for a living. So me using that word isn't to make fun of it or anything.

Speaker 1:

I think, learning how to connect with them, finding where they are excited, where they have emotion leaning into that, getting curious about that I love that aspect.

Speaker 1:

One other thing that kind of came to my mind is to figure out how to love the person who's so guarded, with their emotion getting really kind of curious.

Speaker 1:

You can just love the person that maybe feels so worried about sharing themselves and maybe where that came from, and just almost meditate on that a little bit. Wow, like here's someone who, for whatever reason, has a hard time sharing their emotion. I've talked to these guys and usually, if you can really slow it down, it's kind of crushing for them too, like they wish they could be the person that their wife is looking for. They wish they could access their emotion and woo her in a way that they can see she wants to be wooed and they just don't know how hard for them and can you just find some compassion for that? One other question that I want to kind of touch on that I heard very consistently is something like this I married my wife and it seemed like after we started a family together, I lost her and I'm wondering, like is there something we can do to get her back?

Speaker 2:

Hmm, I'm curious what they mean by lost her.

Speaker 1:

Yep, so like sometimes I hear it seems like she's not interested in me anymore, doesn't really care about me anymore, doesn't really want anything to do with me anymore, like these are some of the themes that the statements that I've heard them say, and is there something I can do to like get her to want to be around me more, be happy with me, want to engage with me? These are some of the questions I guess that I've received and I wonder what could you offer to them to help them understand how to access their wife, who seems to maybe have disconnected or distanced themselves.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is just so many questions that I have for her, meaning like if she were here, I would want to explore so much, and so, in a way, I feel like my answer is explore her, figure out, don't see it as this problem. Why are you not into me? Maybe she doesn't really know the answer to that yet, but from a systems type view, thinking of your life as a big system where everything influences everything else, that butterfly effect, the system like whatever you want to call it Because I think, okay, having kids, maybe all of a sudden she's got all this other responsibility and is overwhelmed and maybe she and her responsibility doesn't have as much time to do things, even just slow down or even get ready. Like I know, my wife feels much more confident when she's had the chance to get ready a little bit that day, and maybe it has to do with feeling presentable or desirable.

Speaker 2:

It's not that she doesn't desire you. Maybe it's that she just doesn't feel like she's desirable and so she withdraws because it's like oh, I feel like a gross mess. I got freaking kids, snot on me and Cheeto powder and I've got my hair in a bun and I haven't done my makeup in three days and I'm pretty sure my pits stink. That's life of a mom. Some days, a lot of days too, they're awesome. They're just in the trenches doing this work.

Speaker 1:

That's pretty intense, I think every mom that's listening to this right now. I'm just connected with you, trevor Bingo.

Speaker 2:

He got it. I get to see it happen in my little world and we only got one. Just wait till we start cranking them out. It's a lot, our poor ladies in our life. For some reason they have a propensity to never feel like they're good enough, and I don't know what that is, but maybe they don't feel like they're as good of a mom as they had, or maybe they're anxious, worrying that they're going to be like their mom, who wasn't so much of a good mom. That anxiety, if you're anxious, you are in the opposite place of feeling attracted and attractive. Fear is the opposite of attraction. You're never going to be feeling excited and open and free and connecting when you're in that place.

Speaker 2:

So I guess I just get so curious about your wife. And what's cool about this is there's two layers. As you get curious about her, as you try to understand her world, naturally she's going to feel interesting, she's going to feel loved. She's going to feel interesting, she's going to feel loved, she's going to feel chosen. And her level of attraction for you, it's going to go up, it's just going to go up, and so you're kind of, in a way, hitting two birds with one stone. A horrible analogy for this, because that's a fairly violent analogy. But you know what I mean. You're doing two things at once. You're increasing that attraction just by being loving and caring and seeing her. And number two, you're maybe unpacking some of the barriers that get between her and feeling open to connection.

Speaker 2:

Because my guess is she doesn't like that place. She doesn't want to be in a place where she doesn't feel terribly interested in you or terribly interested in the relationship, or attracted. Nobody wants to be there. If I'm working too much and I'm exhausted, I'm not feeling I have time for my wife. I don't want to be there. That sucks. It's not like a choice and it's not to say that she's just sitting there choosing. I don't like him. I think there's more going on.

Speaker 1:

You touch on so many of the same points in such a good way. Your way of describing these things and communicating them is fascinating to me. I guess the two elements of that that I pulled out of there is number one. It's not about the husband. That was essentially what you said, right, and that's where a lot of husbands that I'm talking to in these situations are stuck. They're like I'm working, I'm working out, I'm doing all these things and I do the laundry once a month. Why aren't I attractive? Why doesn't she want me? Why doesn't she want to be with me? And that's like step one. It's like it isn't really about you.

Speaker 2:

It's so relieving and beautiful. Again, we're talking about the same principle. You're almost helping her wipe off her side of the glass a little bit. Let me see in there, let me get some clarity. And you're wiping off your side. When you decide to let go of the defensiveness and like, oh, she doesn't even think I'm attractive. It's like actually, no, I'm not going to believe that, wipe off my side of the glass, go over there like hey, can I help you clean your glass? I just want to learn about you and I want to figure out what's going on. So you clean that side a little bit and all of a sudden you find that clarity and it's like, oh, wow, I just connected with humanity. That like, yeah, of course my wife isn't feeling into me, or literally anyone.

Speaker 2:

It could be the hottest dude in the whole wide world walking through the door with I don't know all the things she ever wants and she would just be like nope, yeah, it's not about you, don't give me a bed and six hours of sleep, yeah, totally, totally, and some time to maybe take a bath and do your hair so you feel like you just, you know, look good and you feel good because you're more likely to move towards somebody when you're feeling confident.

Speaker 1:

Trevor, this has been so fun to kind of just riff with you on all these things and I just thoroughly enjoyed it and I want to give my listeners an opportunity to access you and your way of like communicating about these things. At the end of the day, I think we all serve everybody in our own unique way and I think that having access to you is a gift. How can the people who are interested, who are like dude, I align with Trevor? I think I'm a little bit like Trevor. I want to work with him. How do they do that?

Speaker 2:

Honestly, the best way to get in contact primarily through Instagram. If you don't have Instagram, you can email us at hello at theartofhealingbytrevorcom. If you go to Instagram, the few options that you have is the link that's in the profile there underneath, like my name and some of the information about me. That link has free resources. It has some of my paid offers as well, things like the healthy communication workshop, where we really break down a lot of those skills so that you can increase your capacity for healthy communication. The healthy lovers course, which really is going to help you increase your emotional regulation. So a combination of the healthy lovers course and the healthy communication workshop. Usually it's the best you know. And then every so often, a, a couple times a year, I run like the anxious lovers club. For those of you who are more in the zone of feeling like you have a bit of an anxious attachment and you're like I'm okay with it, like I'm gonna. I'm gonna admit it and be like in the club that's literally named the anxious lovers club, with the intention of healing and becoming better. We do a lot of inner child work there.

Speaker 2:

There's so many things. I could go on and on about cool stuff. You know I am going to be dropping a new offer pretty soon For those who have broken trust through pornography, infidelity, dishonesty and are looking to gain that trust back. What exactly you need to do, like, step by step, the exact do's and don'ts, so that it doesn't have to be this weird guessing game. So there's a lot of cool stuff you can take advantage of. If you're not even sure where to start but you want some help, you can also send over a message briefly. Let us know what you've got going on and we can recommend either working with me personally or you know somebody on my team or one of my offers. There's so many different things that we can offer you.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing and all of those things, I think, touch a different person at a different spot along this journey, different spot along this journey, and I feel like a little bit of something for everybody there, and I've checked a lot of it out, trevor, and I have no problem endorsing your work and what you do, and I think it's amazing. So thanks for coming on, thanks for spending this time here today with us, trevor, and I hope to see you down the road.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. You have a great rest of your day, you too, trevor.

Speaker 1:

You have been listening to the Marriage Essentials podcast. I hope that you found some valuable insights and inspiration to apply to your relationship. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at marriage underscore essentials for more content like this. Until next time, keep nurturing your love and remember that a happy marriage really is a journey, it's not a destination. Take care and I'll see you in the next episode.